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Stephanie Bond,
from the UN HC for Refugees, stationed at the Krajina at the moment of
the greatest mass exodus since World War II,
took part on the CNN Forum , messages #5158
to
#5258.
Just start at the 5158 and go forward, it's a moment you should not
miss on the CNN Board.
Below you find excerpts. We underlined parts in red.
Discussion involving (among other things) the exodus of the Krajina
serbs
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 2:03:03am (#5158)
Rather than argue whether the tragic massacres were committed by Serbs
or KLA against their own people -- after all, either is quite possible
-- why don't we wait for a proper investigation and leave the question
open? It seems pointless argue now, and better to leave it an open question,
and move on to other questions.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 2:34:26am (#5168)
Dear Srem, You ask why the double standard. Well, I asked myself
that when I was in the middle of Operation Storm when
the Croats were bombing Serb refugees and then there was the horrendous
Dvor Massacre -- 450+ refugees massacred, and the people from the handicapped
school hauled out in their wheelchairs and executed in front of us UN.
No word from the international community condemning the largest ethnic
cleansing in the history of the Yugoslav conflict of this decade...the
largest exodus of refugees since WWII. No interest from the press as I
attempted to give humanitarian aid to the few left behind and investigate
human rights violations. Well, guess what? All the morality talk is just
that...more later....
It was just machine guns. Yes the Croat migs strafed refugees
with machine guns on the Vrginmost-Topusko road, but the migs actually
bombed them on the Glina-Dvor road. That's where
I first learned that the smell of burning human flesh was the most horrendous
smell in the world. Where were the people you knew?
Srem N'Albanic - Friday, 10/16/98, 2:50:54am (#5180)
Stephanie,
They were leaving Knin at 4:00am when bombing started. Their
column was repeatedly attacked by Croat soldiers and Croat civilians. There
homes were immediately burned as they left. Can you imagine living through
this?
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 2:56:16am (#5183)
Dear Srem, 4am on which date? The first bombing started at that time on
4 August. If they got out then, they are lucky. The last column that got
out with our help was at about that time, led by a very brave ECMM team
in radio contact with myself and the UNHCR officer for Sector North. As
far as I know, 5 Corps and the Tigers didn't get to Dvor until 6 Aug. I
would be interested to hear their story and email with you. I am still
working out my report on the Dvor massacre.
Srem N'Albanic - Friday, 10/16/98, 2:40:13am (#5171)
Hi Stephanie, Alot of my relatives were in that group
that you speak of. I have heard all the stories. The worst one, that still
burns me, is that Croat jets were allowed (remember
Op. Storm under US command) to fire with machineguns on the long column
of refugess who were fleeing.
Imagine, the US generals indulging themselves and the fascist vampires
in the CroNazi army to kill and murder innocent refugees. Why
isn't the US commander of Op. Storm in the Hague for this war crime?
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:00:58am (#5187)
BTW, Kurva, If you doubt who I am, just ask the UN...there's a little button
you can click on this page for the UN. Or just ask anyone living in the
former Sectors North or East in Croatia...or ask any of the Croat ministers...I
used to negotiate with them. And no, I'm not pro anybody. I helped Croats
and Bosnian Muslims, and ethnic Hungarians and ethnic Albanians...oh, yes,
you could even ask the Albanian ambassador to Croatia...he knows me well.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:05:54am (#5188)
(laughing) Oh, Kurva. I'm sorry, but this is funny. Do you know
that I was twice interviewed by JNA intelligence officers on suspicion
that was Canadian Croat posing as an American UN human rights and humanitarian
officer? Even though I was known in Sector North as "Mother Theresa of
the Serbs"? Now you think I'm really some Serb. Sorry, but it's really
very funny to me. I have no Balkan roots. I admit I am married now to a
Russian. We worked together in Sectors North and East. But he's from St.
Petersburg, and I doubt he has any Balkan roots either.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:20:02am (#5195)
Thank you, Srem, I'll contact you. As you can imagine, my documentation
of the Dvor massacre has been difficult. I have testimony from the last
person left before the convoy was cut in the early morning hours of 6 Aug.
I have more I can't talk about here, of course. I would like to have more
sources on the exact placements of troops from which divisions of which
army, if you know what I mean, so responsibility can be assigned to this
horrendous war crime. But the few eye witnesses I have are vulnerable,
and I never saw any point in endagering the living for the dead, so I never
even released those particular accounts via our compromised comms to the
UN. I may likely wait until they have all died, which could be many years...but
I cannot betray them. But any pointers I can get would be most helpful.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:27:50am (#5199)
Dear Kurva, Yes, the UN can take pictures. So can BBC. Do
you recall what happened to the BBC in Vrginmost on 6 Aug 1995? The Croats
executed two members of their film crew along with 17 Serbs against the
wall of the PTT building. I'm not saying a word about pictures except
they exist in a safe place.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:32:38am (#5202)
Dear Roberto, Good night to you, and sweet dreams. I wanted and
meant to say earlier that you should continue to speak out, that the content
of your speech is much more important than the grammar. I wanted to encourage
you because I think you are a reasoned voice here. I don't want to be intelectually
safe, but would welcome challenge from you. I am sorry if I appear as a
Serb apologist. I am not. I do believe in fairness and impartiality, however,
and the media and the US government have tilted this far away from the
Serbs. I wish we all had a more balanced view. All of the parties in the
Yugoslav conflict have been victims, and all have been perpetrators.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:38:23am (#5205)
Dear Kurva, How ghoulish to want pictures. If you want facts, look them
up. There were some press accounts about the executions of the handicapped.
Also, a picture of the Serbs refugees being bombed by Croat migs appears
in Owen's "Balkan Odyssey" And if you care to look up the August 1995 press
accounts, you may also find that the Croatian army actually tied our Danish
peacekeepers to the fronts of their tanks as human shields. So, what were
the Danes in Dvor supposed to do with their film under those circumstances?
You make things too simple.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:43:40am (#5208)
(Sigh) Oh, Kurva, if you want to play the Hitler game, then who
were villains in Yugoslavia executing Jews, Gypsies and Serbs? They were
Croat Ustasche and Kosovar Albanians. So let's drop the Hitler thing. It's
already causing too many deaths today between the sons of the Ustasche
and their victims.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:47:09am (#5210)
Dear JJL, I am an American. My ancestors immigrated here in 1640.
I have no Balkan roots. Please watch the board. And if you think Americans
have no blame in the former Yugoslavia, please educate yourself by reading
Misha Glenny's "Fall of Yugoslavia" and David Owen's "Balkan Oddysey" and
then we'll talk.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:02:32am (#5218)
FYI everyone,
I am not defending Serbs or taking their side. I used ethnic
cleansing and the massacre of Serbs to prove a point. I have also used
examples of Muslim killings and ethnic cleansings by Croats to prove a
point...and the point is, that there is a double standard. Either ethnic
cleansing and extrajudicial killing is just that, whether committed by
Serbs or Croats or Muslims or Americans or Chinese or Eskimoes...against
any of the above...or not. There can be no double standard in these matters.
It is was it is, or isn't what it isn't.
Gorazd Cvetic - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:07:01am (#5220)
Mrs.S.Bond wrote in mesage #5204:
``...I wish we all had a more balanced view. All of the parties
in the Yugoslav conflict have been victims, and all have been perpetrators.''
Literally speaking, you are right. Literally speaking, also the following
analogous statement is right: ``In the conflict known nowadays as Shoah,
both parties to the conflict have been victims, and both parties have been
perpetrators.'' After all, the participants of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
didn't take prisoners, I believe. I hope this analogy can illustrate
the absurdity of your statement. Please read indictments issued by the
Hague War Crimes Tribunal. They decribe a GLOBAL picture of a systematic
policy of genocide, planned and perpetrated by the Serb and the Croat political
and the military leadership in Bosnia against the Slavic Moslem population.
They also describe several cases of crimes perpetrated by Moslem individuals
against Serb or Croat civilians or prisoners. In every war,
there are perpetrators on both (all) sides, that's true. But to lose the
GLOBAL picture of which side is doing what to whom is inexcusable.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:09:12am (#5221)
Dear Kurva, I am sorry to hear about the television coming out of
Belgrade. Tudjman did the same in Croatia to whip up anti-Serb and anti-UN
sentiment. It's all so disgusting. What we need in this world are more
people who don't buy the garbage on television and seek the truth. Maybe
all of the parties in the former Yugoslavia have more in common than they
think...maybe if all of them rebelled against the brainwashing and decided
to stop fighting each other for the political and monetary gain of a few...and...
well, that's too much to hope for. JJL: Thank you! Please read
those books. It's only people like you, who choose real education over
media brainwashing that gives me hope. Godspeed.
Gorazd Cvetic - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:14:34am (#5224)
No, I am not a Bosnian. I am a Slovene, with a (more or less) Catholic
beckground.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:16:32am (#5225)
Dear Kurva, Apparently you did not see my earlier post in which
I said that the majority of ethnic cleansing and atrocities were committed
by the Bosnian Serbs in Bosnia. I do not lose the global picture. The real
danger in the former Yugoslavia, however, is "collective guilt" blaming
an entire people for the crimes of a portion of their people. Where would
we be today if this had been the policy following WWII? All Germans and
Japanese would be demons. And we'd still want to kill each other. I have
known many fine people in former Yugoslavia of all ethnic backgrounds who
should not be blamed for any of this. We need to stengthen the reasonable
voices and condemn the hateful, genocidal voices...of whatever nationality.
Until all are treated equally, we have no moral ground. Until we condemn
every act of cruelty, then all condemnations sound hollow. That is what
I mean.
J.J.L. - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:28:59am (#5229)
S. Bond --
You seem like a very intelligent and educated person. But am
I misunderstanding your posts?
Are you saying that because the UN (which is comprised of several
more nations than just the US) and NATO (also a conglomerate of nations)
has decided to intervene in this particular "humanitarian disaster"...it
is wrong for doing so on the basis of its lack of action on other "humanitarian
disasters"?? How can you make such an argument?
Consider for a moment a man with a strange gun that had an immensely complicated
reloading procedure. Across the street from him was an alley. In the alley,
murders were committed at regular intervals. The man fires at a murderer,
kills him, and thus prevents one murder. Then he begins the long and grueling
task of reloading his gun. While he does this, more murders happen. When
he finally has his gun ready again, he fires, kills another murderer, and
prevents another murder. Then it's back to the reloading again.
Is this man wrong because he cannot kill all the murderers? Or would you
be making a refference to the few times that the man had his gun loaded,
and decided not to pull the trigger because he felt that the victim wasn't
worth the ammo or time....and it served his interests better not to stop
the murder??
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:33:11am (#5230)
JJL, Good question, which I have struggled with for long. No, I
do not think it wrong to intervene to help in one case where you have failed
to intervene or could not intervene in another. The question is, why choose
to intervene in one case and not another. The only answer is "wider national
interests." Well, why not be good buddies with Croats, because...well,
look at the map...they make a nice "stopper in the bottle" for all those
"Balkan barbarians" spreading their ugly little scuffles and their refugees
into Europe proper...but even more interesting....more in next post...
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:38:25am (#5231)
...next of all, what about that all-important Caspian oil pipeline...okay,
now we're getting close to the American heart! The Caspian pipeling is
where? Check your map! If something happens to the Middle East oil, then
the US would want to have something to say about that pipeline, wouldn't
we? Read your Owen and ask yourself why the US messed up all the Bosnian
peace plans until 1995. Now look how strategic Kosovo is to getting a foot
in to proximity to that pipeline...now ask why the US is interested in
14 massacred Abanians when they could care less about thousands of massacred
Bosnian Muslims, Serbs, Croats, massacred Croatian Serbs and Croats...and,
well, it's the old pocketbook with moral window-dressing, isn't it?
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:41:35am (#5232)
Also, JLL, look at who passes UN Security Council resolutions...who's on
the security council? Whose interests are more in oil than poor helpless
refugees? I have worked with refugees in more countries than former Yugoslavia...no,
it wasn't my first mission.... I am truly sorry for the ethnic Albanians
in the woods. That's what makes me sick.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:47:52am (#5233)
By the way, just because I will not lay blame to who masscred the Albanians
and want to wait for proper investigation, does not take away from my sympathy
for the ethnic Albanian refugees...I obviously have great sympathy for
the ethnic Serb refugees of the Krajina...at the same time, I consider
them to be more betrayed by their corrupt leaders Martic and Babic than
by the Croats...whichever way it is, those Albanians in the woods are true
victims of a plot much larger and more sinister than they can comprehend...they
are victims just the same and it is wrong and should be condemned.
J.J.L. - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:49:33am (#5234)
S. Bond -- You make an extremely good point. Actually,
quite a haunting one as well. I had not considered that particular....but
earlier on this board I created a hypothetical situation that had vast
uranium deposits somewhere in the region. Deposits discovered by new highly
advanced geolgical survey sattelites. I was suggesting that
perhaps there is a classified reason for the interest in the region. A
possibility that I am sure is not as remote as many would like to think.
Your mention of the pipeline is a very interesting possibility. Not even
possibility. I would say that it would be an impossibility that the pipeline
is not part of a list of reasons for the international determination to
"protect" the region. JJL
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:55:43am (#5235)
Yes, JJL, now you've got it. And every time I put gas in my car
I think of all the fine Serb, Croat, Muslim and Hungarian farmers I knew
in former Yugoslavia who never wanted this stupid war...and I am sick and
I pray for all of them...of course now that the Albanians are also involved,
I will will pray for them as well. And when I see Clinton acting so moral
I want to smash my television screen because he authored many of the massacres
in Bosnia and I watch on CNN on the night of 3 August as he "gave the green
light" to the slaughter and ethnic cleansing of the Krajina.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 5:10:38am (#5242)
Well, Lilly, I must say, that I have dealt with so many people on
all sides who are bitter...with reason: they have lost homes and family
members and lived through unspeakable horrors. I cannot blame them for
taking a side and not believing anything in "support" of another side.
And the media in Croatia, FRY and Bosnia have been very one-sided and only
serve to harden the taking of sides. I only wished to open up thinking
that it is possible to blame certain people as opposed an entire people...and
to look for a wider motive behind the individual acts and what is allowed
to be gotten with and what isn't. I'm sorry if I sound a cynic, but I've
lived waiting for justice that never came and asked why, just as the peoples
of the former Yugoslavia have. I am still looking for answers...I want
to listen for those answers, propose my own tentative views...and then
LISTEN for feedback. I hope all of us here can listen just a little.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 5:20:43am (#5244)
JJL, My undergraduate degree was in Communications,
and I used to believe in a free press. I don't think you're wrong to believe
you are required to keep up with the details of American foreign policy
to avoid guilt as a party to genocide in a faraway country when you vote...I
certainly never believed that. But, while waiting, month after month, while
watching the Croat police take away the last firewood and food of the remaining
elderly and handicapped in Sector North and wondering where was the media...I'm
sorry, but I completely lost any faith in a free international press. Although,
I must say that if it were not for Peter Arnette's help during our frantic
attempt to negotiate a ceasefire and surrender for the Krajina Serbs...I
shudder to think. Anyway, I think we as voters should try to be more aware
of the truth of matters...more in next post...
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 5:26:09am (#5245)
Lilly,
I, too, am an absurd idealist who believes in "Unity and Brotherhood"
and my heart goes out to you and your parents in Belgrade. I agree about
the Serbs. Remember that the Croats and the Bosnian Muslims hired an expensive
and influential Washington public relations and lobbying firm before the
war even broke out, and have continued to use their their services to great
effect until this very day. The Serbs just wore their hearts on their sleeves.
So, it's all very sad. Lord Owen suggested having a UN "sanction" against
the hiring of such firms by parties to a conflict under UN mandate, and
I believe he has a point. Good night and best wishes to you and yours.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 5:37:17am (#5248)
Dear Peter,
You have sympathy here. Read back through the messages on this board
and see that NATO statements aren't going to be friendly to Slobo, who
stands between us and and pipeline. Oil is the real king of this world,
and the media go along. (Haven't you noticed that in the American media
Slobo and Saddam and Adolf could be interchangeable images?) So what, truth?
There's OIL at stake! Don't you want to fill up cheap and head for the
lake this weekend?
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 6:20:43am (#5256)
Dear Mr. Cvetic, Yes, I am well aware of The Hague and their
fine work. I hope they will someday bring to justice all persons guilty
of genocide, of whatever national background. I am also well aware that
they they have attempted (with and through me at times) to indict Croat
war criminals who were never brought to justice. In my opinion, the Croats
of "Herceg-Bosna" are greater enemies of the Bosnian Muslims, and wish
their extermination to a greater degree than the the Serbs. Time will tell.
Did you read last week's UNHCR reports about the killings of Bosnian Muslim
returnees in "Herzeg-Bosna"? Did you read how the Croats threw grenades
into the homes of returning Muslims? It's all in official UNHCR reports.
Just read them. And ask why you don't see it in the US press. Then talk
to me.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 6:30:55am (#5257)
(Sigh) I am becoming so weary of this board. Every new person who
enters attacks those who have been discussing for some time. Often, those
people who have been discussing for some time began as adversaries. What
if all of us on this board CHALLENGED each other legitimately? That is
good and healthy for arriving at the truth. What if we all took each other
in good faith but asked for primary resources, like UNHCR figures and the
like? Now that might be productive for arriving at the truth. What do you
say let's try it instead of being each others' enemies?
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 6:44:30am (#5258)
Gee, such a long silence. I guess it's no fun to give up being enemies,
so I will go to bed and pray that the peaceful people and the refugees
who have no internet access will make more intelligent decisions than the
priveledged group of us who do. Good night and may the peace which passes
all understanding touch you all. (To my Muslim friends: this quote is from
the Old Testament as well as the New, and I am sure anyone who is a true
believer will understand what I mean. In any case, even to the Unbelievers,
Peace is not a bad thing.) Good night and God's Peace to all. Zivoli!
