Would you like to make this site your homepage? It's fast and easy...
Yes, Please make this my home page!
Stephanie Bond,
do Alto Comissariado para os Refugiados (UNHCR), na Krajina no momento
do exodus maciço da Krajina, o maior desde a segunda guerra mundial,
participou no forum da CNN, mensagens #5158
a
#5258.
Começando na 5158, abaixo encontra excertos. Nós sublinhamos
partes a vermelho.
Discussão que envolve (entre outras coisas) o exodus dos Sérvios
de Krajina
Stephanie Bond - sexta-feira, 10/16/98, 2:03:0ám (# 5158)
Melhor que discuta se os massacres trágicos estiveram cometidos
por Servios ou KLA de encontro a seus próprios povos -- apesar de
tudo, qualquer um é completamente possível -- por que nós
não esperamos uma investigação apropriada e não
deixamos a pergunta aberta? Parece inutil que se discuta agora, é
melhor deixar a pergunta em aberto, e ir adiante com outras perguntas.
Stephanie Bond - sexta-feira, 10/16/98, 2:34:2ãm (# 5168)
Bem, eu perguntei-me que quando eu estava no meio da operação
"tempestade", quando os Croatas bombardeavam
os refugiados sérvios e então o horrendo Massacre
de Dvor-- mais de 450 Refugiados massacrados,
e os pessoal da escola para handicados foi transportada para fora em suas
cadeiras de rodas e executada na frente de nós UN. Nenhuma
palavra da comunidade internacional que condenando o o maior cleansing
étnico na história do conflito jugoslavo desta década...
o maior exodo de refugiados desde a segunda guerra mundial. ...
Os migs dos Croatas metralhando os Refugiados na estrada de Vrginmost-Topusko
.... Isso é o lugar onde eu aprendi pela primeira
vez o que o cheiro de carne humana ardente é, o cheiro mais horrendous
no mundo. Onde estavam as pessoas que você conheceu?
Srem N'Albanic - Sexta-feira, 10/16/98, 2:50:5âm (# 5180)
Stephanie,
Deixavam Knin ás 4:00 da manhã quando o bombardeio
começou. Sua coluna foi atacada repetidamente por soldados Croatas
e por civis Croatas. As casas foram queimadas imediatamente após
eles as abandonarem. Pode você imaginar o que é viver assim?
Stephanie Bond - sexta-feira, 10/16/98, 2:56:1ãm (# 5183)
Caro Srem, as 4 da manhã em que data? O primeiro bombardeio começou
nesse tempo em 4 agosto. Se saírem então, são afortunados.
A última coluna que saiu com nossa ajuda estava aproximadamente
nessa vez, conduzida por uma equipe muito brava de ECMM no contato de rádio
comigo e o oficial de UNHCR para o setor norte. Eu estou trabalhando
ainda num relatório do massacre de Dvor.
Srem N'Albanic - Sexta-feira, 10/16/98, 2:40:1ám (# 5171)
Hi Stephanie, muitos dos meus parentes estavam nesse grupo de que
você fala. Eu ouvi todas as histórias. O pior é que
os
jatos dos Croatas foram autoruzados (recorde a operação
"tempestade" sob o comando dos E. U.) a fazer fogo com sobre a longa
coluna dos que estavam fujindo.
Por que é o comandante dos E. U.
na op. "tempestade" não está em Haia para ser julgado por
este crime da guerra?
Stephanie Bond - sexta-feira, 10/16/98, 3:00:5åm (# 5187)
Kurva, se você duvidar quem eu sou, pergunte à ONU ... ou
perguntar ao ministro Croata ... costumaca negociar com ele. Eu não
tomo partido a favor de nimguém. Eu ajudei Croatas e Muçulmanos
Bosnianos e albanêses étnicos... sim, você
poderia mesmo convidar ao embaixador albanês na Croacia... que me
conhece bem.
Stephanie Bond - sexta-feira, 10/16/98, 3:05:5âm (# 5188)
Kurva, essa é engraçada. Você sabe que eu fui
entrevistado duas vezes por oficiais secretos da JNA na suspeita que era
Croata canadense ? Apesar de ser conhecida no setor norte como " madre
Theresa dos Servios "? Eu não tenho nenhuma raiz de Balcãs.
Stephanie Bond - sexta-feira, 10/16/98, 3:20:0àm (# 5195)
Srem, como você pode imaginar, minha documentação do
massacre de Dvor foi difícil. Eu tive o testemunho da última
pessoa a sair no ultimo "combóio" na madrugada de 6
agostonão posso falar mais aqui. Eu gostaria de ter mais fontes
nas colocações exatas das tropas, se você compreende
o que eu quero dizer, para que a responsabilidade possa ser atribuída
a este crime horrendo de guerra.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:27:50am (#5199)
Dear Kurva, lembra-se do que aconteceu à
equipa da BBC em Vrginmost em 6 de Agosto de 1995? Os Croatas executaram
dois membros , juntamente com 17 Sérvios, contra a parede
do edificio dos correios. Não digo nada sobre fotos, excepto
que existem num ligar seguro.
===== em inglès =================
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:32:38am (#5202)
Dear Roberto, Good night to you, and sweet dreams. I wanted and
meant to say earlier that you should continue to speak out, that the content
of your speech is much more important than the grammar. I wanted to encourage
you because I think you are a reasoned voice here. I don't want to be intelectually
safe, but would welcome challenge from you. I am sorry if I appear as a
Serb apologist. I am not. I do believe in fairness and impartiality, however,
and the media and the US government have tilted this far away from the
Sérvios. I wish we all had a more balanced view. All of the parties
in the Yugoslav conflict have been victims, and all have been perpetrators.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:38:23am (#5205)
Dear Kurva, How ghoulish to want pictures. If you want facts, look them
up. There were some press accounts about the executions of the handicapped.
Also, a picture of the Sérvios refugees being bombed by Croat migs
appears in Owen's "Balkan Odyssey" And if you care to look up the August
1995 press accounts, you may also find that the Croatian army actually
tied our Danish peacekeepers to the fronts of their tanks as human shields.
So, what were the Danes in Dvor supposed to do with their film under those
circumstances? You make things too simple.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:43:40am (#5208)
(Sigh) Oh, Kurva, if you want to play the Hitler game, then who
were villains in Yugoslavia executing Jews, Gypsies and Sérvios?
They were Croat Ustasche and Kosovar Albanians. So let's drop the Hitler
thing. It's already causing too many deaths today between the sons of the
Ustasche and their victims.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 3:47:09am (#5210)
Dear JJL, I am an American. My ancestors immigrated here in 1640.
I have no Balkan roots. Please watch the board. And if you think Americans
have no blame in the former Yugoslavia, please educate yourself by reading
Misha Glenny's "Fall of Yugoslavia" and David Owen's "Balkan Oddysey" and
then we'll talk.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:02:32am (#5218)
FYI everyone,
I am not defending Sérvios or taking their side. I used
ethnic cleansing and the massacre of Sérvios to prove a point. I
have also used examples of Muslim killings and ethnic cleansings by Croatas
to prove a point...and the point is, that there is a double standard. Either
ethnic cleansing and extrajudicial killing is just that, whether committed
by Sérvios or Croatas or Muslims or Americans or Chinese or Eskimoes...against
any of the above...or not. There can be no double standard in these matters.
It is was it is, or isn't what it isn't.
Gorazd Cvetic - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:07:01am (#5220)
Mrs.S.Bond wrote in mesage #5204:
``...I wish we all had a more balanced view. All of the parties
in the Yugoslav conflict have been victims, and all have been perpetrators.''
Literally speaking, you are right. Literally speaking, also the following
analogous statement is right: ``In the conflict known nowadays as Shoah,
both parties to the conflict have been victims, and both parties have been
perpetrators.'' After all, the participants of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
didn't take prisoners, I believe. I hope this analogy can illustrate
the absurdity of your statement. Please read indictments issued by the
Hague War Crimes Tribunal. They decribe a GLOBAL picture of a systematic
policy of genocide, planned and perpetrated by the Serb and the Croat political
and the military leadership in Bosnia against the Slavic Moslem population.
They also describe several cases of crimes perpetrated by Moslem individuals
against Serb or Croat civilians or prisoners. In every war,
there are perpetrators on both (all) sides, that's true. But to lose the
GLOBAL picture of which side is doing what to whom is inexcusable.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:09:12am (#5221)
Dear Kurva, I am sorry to hear about the television coming out of
Belgrade. Tudjman did the same in Croatia to whip up anti-Serb and anti-UN
sentiment. It's all so disgusting. What we need in this world are more
people who don't buy the garbage on television and seek the truth. Maybe
all of the parties in the former Yugoslavia have more in common than they
think...maybe if all of them rebelled against the brainwashing and decided
to stop fighting each other for the political and monetary gain of a few...and...
well, that's too much to hope for. JJL: Thank you! Please read
those books. It's only people like you, who choose real education over
media brainwashing that gives me hope. Godspeed.
Gorazd Cvetic - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:14:34am (#5224)
No, I am not a Bosnian. I am a Slovene, with a (more or less) Catholic
beckground.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:16:32am (#5225)
Dear Kurva, Apparently you did not see my earlier post in which
I said that the majority of ethnic cleansing and atrocities were committed
by the Bosnian Sérvios in Bosnia. I do not lose the global picture.
The real danger in the former Yugoslavia, however, is "collective guilt"
blaming an entire people for the crimes of a portion of their people. Where
would we be today if this had been the policy following WWII? All Germans
and Japanese would be demons. And we'd still want to kill each other. I
have known many fine people in former Yugoslavia of all ethnic backgrounds
who should not be blamed for any of this. We need to stengthen the reasonable
voices and condemn the hateful, genocidal voices...of whatever nationality.
Until all are treated equally, we have no moral ground. Until we condemn
every act of cruelty, then all condemnations sound hollow. That is what
I mean.
J.J.L. - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:28:59am (#5229)
S. Bond --
You seem like a very intelligent and educated person. But am
I misunderstanding your posts?
Are you saying that because the UN (which is comprised of several
more nations than just the US) and NATO (also a conglomerate of nations)
has decided to intervene in this particular "humanitarian disaster"...it
is wrong for doing so on the basis of its lack of action on other "humanitarian
disasters"?? How can you make such an argument?
Consider for a moment a man with a strange gun that had an immensely complicated
reloading procedure. Across the street from him was an alley. In the alley,
murders were committed at regular intervals. The man fires at a murderer,
kills him, and thus prevents one murder. Then he begins the long and grueling
task of reloading his gun. While he does this, more murders happen. When
he finally has his gun ready again, he fires, kills another murderer, and
prevents another murder. Then it's back to the reloading again.
Is this man wrong because he cannot kill all the murderers? Or would you
be making a refference to the few times that the man had his gun loaded,
and decided not to pull the trigger because he felt that the victim wasn't
worth the ammo or time....and it served his interests better not to stop
the murder??
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:33:11am (#5230)
JJL, Good question, which I have struggled with for long. No, I
do not think it wrong to intervene to help in one case where you have failed
to intervene or could not intervene in another. The question is, why choose
to intervene in one case and not another. The only answer is "wider national
interests." Well, why not be good buddies with Croatas, because...well,
look at the map...they make a nice "stopper in the bottle" for all those
"Balkan barbarians" spreading their ugly little scuffles and their refugees
into Europe proper...but even more interesting....more in next post...
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:38:25am (#5231)
...next of all, what about that all-important Caspian oil pipeline...okay,
now we're getting close to the American heart! The Caspian pipeling is
where? Check your map! If something happens to the Middle East oil, then
the US would want to have something to say about that pipeline, wouldn't
we? Read your Owen and ask yourself why the US messed up all the Bosnian
peace plans until 1995. Now look how strategic Kosovo is to getting a foot
in to proximity to that pipeline...now ask why the US is interested in
14 massacred Abanians when they could care less about thousands of massacred
Bosnian Muslims, Sérvios, Croatas, massacred Croatian Sérvios
and Croatas...and, well, it's the old pocketbook with moral window-dressing,
isn't it?
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:41:35am (#5232)
Also, JLL, look at who passes UN Security Council resolutions...who's on
the security council? Whose interests are more in oil than poor helpless
refugees? I have worked with refugees in more countries than former Yugoslavia...no,
it wasn't my first mission.... I am truly sorry for the ethnic Albanians
in the woods. That's what makes me sick.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:47:52am (#5233)
By the way, just because I will not lay blame to who masscred the Albanians
and want to wait for proper investigation, does not take away from my sympathy
for the ethnic Albanian refugees...I obviously have great sympathy for
the ethnic Serb refugees of the Krajina...at the same time, I consider
them to be more betrayed by their corrupt leaders Martic and Babic than
by the Croatas...whichever way it is, those Albanians in the woods are
true victims of a plot much larger and more sinister than they can comprehend...they
are victims just the same and it is wrong and should be condemned.
J.J.L. - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:49:33am (#5234)
S. Bond -- You make an extremely good point. Actually,
quite a haunting one as well. I had not considered that particular....but
earlier on this board I created a hypothetical situation that had vast
uranium deposits somewhere in the region. Deposits discovered by new highly
advanced geolgical survey sattelites. I was suggesting that
perhaps there is a classified reason for the interest in the region. A
possibility that I am sure is not as remote as many would like to think.
Your mention of the pipeline is a very interesting possibility. Not even
possibility. I would say that it would be an impossibility that the pipeline
is not part of a list of reasons for the international determination to
"protect" the region. JJL
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 4:55:43am (#5235)
Yes, JJL, now you've got it. And every time I put gas in my car
I think of all the fine Serb, Croat, Muslim and Hungarian farmers I knew
in former Yugoslavia who never wanted this stupid war...and I am sick and
I pray for all of them...of course now that the Albanians are also involved,
I will will pray for them as well. And when I see Clinton acting so moral
I want to smash my television screen because he authored many of the massacres
in Bosnia and I watch on CNN on the night of 3 August as he "gave the green
light" to the slaughter and ethnic cleansing of the Krajina.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 5:10:38am (#5242)
Well, Lilly, I must say, that I have dealt with so many people on
all sides who are bitter...with reason: they have lost homes and family
members and lived through unspeakable horrors. I cannot blame them for
taking a side and not believing anything in "support" of another side.
And the media in Croatia, FRY and Bosnia have been very one-sided and only
serve to harden the taking of sides. I only wished to open up thinking
that it is possible to blame certain people as opposed an entire people...and
to look for a wider motive behind the individual acts and what is allowed
to be gotten with and what isn't. I'm sorry if I sound a cynic, but I've
lived waiting for justice that never came and asked why, just as the peoples
of the former Yugoslavia have. I am still looking for answers...I want
to listen for those answers, propose my own tentative views...and then
LISTEN for feedback. I hope all of us here can listen just a little.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 5:20:43am (#5244)
JJL, My undergraduate degree was in Communications,
and I used to believe in a free press. I don't think you're wrong to believe
you are required to keep up with the details of American foreign policy
to avoid guilt as a party to genocide in a faraway country when you vote...I
certainly never believed that. But, while waiting, month after month, while
watching the Croat police take away the last firewood and food of the remaining
elderly and handicapped in Sector North and wondering where was the media...I'm
sorry, but I completely lost any faith in a free international press. Although,
I must say that if it were not for Peter Arnette's help during our frantic
attempt to negotiate a ceasefire and surrender for the Krajina Sérvios...I
shudder to think. Anyway, I think we as voters should try to be more aware
of the truth of matters...more in next post...
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 5:26:09am (#5245)
Lilly,
I, too, am an absurd idealist who believes in "Unity and Brotherhood"
and my heart goes out to you and your parents in Belgrade. I agree about
the Sérvios. Remember that the Croatas and the Bosnian Muslims hired
an expensive and influential Washington public relations and lobbying firm
before the war even broke out, and have continued to use their their services
to great effect until this very day. The Sérvios just wore their
hearts on their sleeves. So, it's all very sad. Lord Owen suggested having
a UN "sanction" against the hiring of such firms by parties to a conflict
under UN mandate, and I believe he has a point. Good night and best wishes
to you and yours.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 5:37:17am (#5248)
Dear Peter,
You have sympathy here. Read back through the messages on this board
and see that NATO statements aren't going to be friendly to Slobo, who
stands between us and and pipeline. Oil is the real king of this world,
and the media go along. (Haven't you noticed that in the American media
Slobo and Saddam and Adolf could be interchangeable images?) So what, truth?
There's OIL at stake! Don't you want to fill up cheap and head for the
lake this weekend?
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 6:20:43am (#5256)
Dear Mr. Cvetic, Yes, I am well aware of The Hague and their
fine work. I hope they will someday bring to justice all persons guilty
of genocide, of whatever national background. I am also well aware that
they they have attempted (with and through me at times) to indict Croat
war criminals who were never brought to justice. In my opinion, the Croatas
of "Herceg-Bosna" are greater enemies of the Bosnian Muslims, and wish
their extermination to a greater degree than the the Sérvios. Time
will tell. Did you read last week's UNHCR reports about the killings of
Bosnian Muslim returnees in "Herzeg-Bosna"? Did you read how the Croatas
threw grenades into the homes of returning Muslims? It's all in official
UNHCR reports. Just read them. And ask why you don't see it in the US press.
Then talk to me.
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 6:30:55am (#5257)
(Sigh) I am becoming so weary of this board. Every new person who
enters attacks those who have been discussing for some time. Often, those
people who have been discussing for some time began as adversaries. What
if all of us on this board CHALLENGED each other legitimately? That is
good and healthy for arriving at the truth. What if we all took each other
in good faith but asked for primary resources, like UNHCR figures and the
like? Now that might be productive for arriving at the truth. What do you
say let's try it instead of being each others' enemies?
Stephanie Bond - Friday, 10/16/98, 6:44:30am (#5258)
Gee, such a long silence. I guess it's no fun to give up being enemies,
so I will go to bed and pray that the peaceful people and the refugees
who have no internet access will make more intelligent decisions than the
priveledged group of us who do. Good night and may the peace which passes
all understanding touch you all. (To my Muslim friends: this quote is from
the Old Testament as well as the New, and I am sure anyone who is a true
believer will understand what I mean. In any case, even to the Unbelievers,
Peace is not a bad thing.) Good night and God's Peace to all. Zivoli!
